sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the suggestions. I am VERY familiar with brake bleeding but only the old school, two person method...But just like last year, I can't understand how there can be so much air every single time, but NOTHING leaks anywhere!?!
Dealership parts guy actually talked to me today...Checked and said they weren't listed as NLA, but the system showed zero stock across the country. SO, ordered from MAZDATRIX...Sick of trying this and that, buying this and that, just want it fixed...

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Again, trying to understand...IF someone is pumping and then holding the brake pedal down, and air is always coming out the opened bleeder screw...How does/can air enter the pneumatically pressurized system?!?!? Albeit by the caliper/piston seal or other hardline connection between caliper and MC...???Please educate...

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

are you Pump,pump,pumping..then cracking the screw and bleeding(SPRIIITZZZ!) THEN tightening the screw and repeating?
You can't have the bleeder open while bleeding brakes IF that is what you are doing.(no offense).

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, no offense. I've been doing the two man brake bleeding for ~30 years now...

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

If nothing is leaking and air is getting back into the system I say it's the brake master. If your constantly seeing air at the bleeder then there is something wrong with the bleeding process.

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Finally got my MC from MAZDATRIX today...Was shocked to see that the MC was not OEM. Don't know what I was thinking(since the cost was less than half of one from MAZDA[if there were any]). But everything I've ever got from them was made in Japan, OEM...ANYWAY, this weekend I'll get it on, and FINALLY try to finish this. Are you supposed to use Teflon tape on the connections or bleeder screws? What if this still doesn't change anything?

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Got it[new MC] on today....Decided to try some tech for the bleeding for once, and had a hand pump vacuum contraption you: put on your bleeders, draw vacuum, crack open bleeders, etc. Started at the rear pass, on it and on every caliper, it always bubbled with air in the catch can, for an hour. SO, went back to the old school two man method, tons of air and foamy fluid came out and eventually seemed to stop on all corners. pedal felt great. Rolled it out of the garage, and it took me standing on the pedal for about 200ft. to get it stopped(grassy decline with slight ~12-20 degree slope) was hoping it was just the accumulated surface rust on the disks and not being started yet. After starting and driving, still seems really soft to how I remembered it(the pedal) and with less effective stroke. I have SS lines, and no rubber lines(to swell) anywhere. Guess I'll drive it a bit and then try bleeding again?

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Well, been driving around last two weeks with CRAP brakes...About 3" of pedal travel until anything happens. Got back to bleed the brakes AGAIN today...AGAIN pumped 32 ounces of fluid thru...Air EVERY SINGLE TIME EVERY SINGLE CALIPER. Started by backing up onto ramps under the rear wheels and focused on the rear lines only for two hours. I'd start with the passenger rear, massive amounts of foamy fluid would come out and then big bubbles, then stop. Then I'd move to the drivers rear and same thing, foam foam, bubbles bubbles, get good pedal...THEN if I move back to the pass. rear, air would still come out and I'd lose ALL my pedal, it wouldn't pump at all. Move to other rear caliper, and same Foam Foam, bubbles bubbles....Would never stop. I'm so infuriated with this crap, I've been trying to bleed my damn brakes for 8 months now. WTF

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Well, talked to some garages today...ONLY suggestion I got after explaining what's going on and what is replaced is that maybe the calipers aren't free enough to slide on their pins. I said that they def. weren't stuck, because I used anti-seize on all the pins. Him say, AHA! don't use that, it ruins the rubber boots and makes rubber stuff swell, and might not let the calipers move on the pin like they should...
I guess this COULD explain the crap pedal and some problems, but not the air in the system, or does it?!?
Help, please?

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

If you suspect the rubber dust shield, for a test just remove it from one caliper and see if you can bleed it.

The only way that much air is in the system is from a leak. The funny thing is that it's at each wheel. I bet your master or a connection close to the master is pulling air in. Have you checked the distribution block at the master?

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Well, right now I have the car's OG Proportioning valve back on...Everything was fine until the OG brake MC failed and leaked out. Then I replaced that with my used prop. valve/MC assembly from a parts car, and that's when I was always getting air when trying to bleed. Recently when I put the new MC on, I also put the OG prop. valve back on(to rule out the one from the parts car). Still have air at every caliper every time...

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

And if there is a leak, why wouldn't fluid come out at that point when the system is pressurized?(I have NO leaks and never lose any fluid from reservoir)...

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

You might want to take it to a brake shop or another mechanic so they can test the system.

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to if I had somewhere to take it...Most places I couldn't physically get the car onto any of their lifts...I also would trust NO-ONE with my wheels and with properly lifting the car. So what kind of "test" would they do? "Tests" like Midas would do by putting damn vise-grips on all your brake lines to clamp them shut?!?!?
HOW CAN I TEST MY SYSTEM?

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

"Plug master cylinder outlet ports. When the brake lines have been properly bled but the brakes are still spongy or dropping, remove the master cylinder lines and block the outlet ports. The desired result should be a full pedal. However, if the brakes are still spongy or dropping, or if bubbles are present in the master cylinder reservoir, the master cylinder could be defective and require replacing."

How to Check for a Defective Master Cylinder | eHow

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

I drove the car again this eve...Brakes are MUCH better than last week(only maybe ~1" of drop in the pedal until braking begins). They feel ok I guess. But if I try to bleed the brakes, this is what'll happen every time:
Start with the passenger rear, massive amounts of foamy fluid would come out and then big bubbles, then stop. Then I'd move to the drivers rear and same thing, foam foam, bubbles bubbles, get good pedal...THEN if I move back to the pass. rear, air would still come out and I'd lose ALL my pedal, it wouldn't pump at all. Move to other rear caliper, and same Foam Foam, bubbles bubbles, then nothing and great pedal, BUT if I checked the the pass. rear again, lots of air, lose pedal, repeat for infinity...Can someone please explain this? And it does the same now with a new MC as it did with the original and the used replacement, so I'm kinda ruling the MC out...

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

Well, after driving around all summer with crap brakes, it was time for inspection end of last month. I found a place where i could get it on the lift, and had them check the brake system and inspect if successful...They said they had to bleed the entire system FOUR times to get all the air out. I was ecstatic with the great pedal and brakes afterwards...But only a week later, they've faded again and you have to press the brake pedal BEYOND the accel. pedal before anything happens without a pre-pump...WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

For the love of GOD, can someone please explain what is going on here?!?!?!?!? How can air enter the system, but fluid NEVER escape. Where/how/why is this happening? Garage could find nothing wrong but air in the system(which took four full bleeds to eliminate, then it returned a few hundred miles later)...

craaaazzy

iTrader: (9)

Wow, you really are having issues. Don't give up. Have you changed hoses yet? My only other suggestion would be the following...when I am trying to track down a leak, i clean the area good and then use foot powder spray (or any sort of powder like baby powder). If there is a leak, you will notice it.

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

No leakage ever, anywhere...All hoses are basically new steel braided lines I installed a few years ago...

Redliner223

iTrader: (6)

I'm having the same issue. My lines show no leaks. My master cylinder has been bled properly and my rear is bleeding fine also, both show no air bubbles or trouble.
My front calipers on the other hand are a different story. I have a spongy brake pedal and they aren't wanting to bleed.
I think it's my hard lines that connect to the soft lines to my calipers and maybe they're not seated right.
I tried taking them apart to replace the lines but they were corroded on there tight, I think I may have been able to loosed them but not remove them all the way. I didn't want to kink the metal or break them so I gave up.
I'll get back to this Saturday when the car is in the air on a lift at a friends shop but I can't figure anything else out.
I hope we can get through this!!!

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

sevens4me,

I'm not sure if was mentioned earlier in this thread but you may have a leak that is acting like a one way valve. The way the seals are shaped in the rear brake cylinders may act like a flap, sealing under pressure, and sucking air in when you release the pedal.
Rebuilt rear cylinders are pretty cheap.

Cookboy

iTrader: (10)

Good thought. I replaced mine last spring. 7 or 8 dollars each.

sevens4me

iTrader: (1)

I gots four wheel disk brakes(GSL-SE). Well, originally, the MC failed and leaked, so I replaced it...Ever since I get air at every caliper when bleeding. I can go thru the whole process and get the air to stop coming out at every caliper in the correct order...BUT, if I go back and start all over, there will be more air every time at every caliper...SO, I rebuilt the front calipers...No difference...I tried 3 different used MC's as well as 3 different used prop. valves, plus a NEW MC...No difference....Took it to a garage to diagnose. Them say just air in lines, took four times to bleed out, now fine....WRONG, one week later, and pedal faded...I also replaced all the caliper pins(in case they were bent) and greased the heck out of them(originally had anit-seize on them)...

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

Weird that it all started when you changed the master. I guess there's still the chance the used one you put on was bad and then the new one was also bad. Although I'd think if the master was bad you would keep getting air while bench bleeding it.
When I bench bleed the master I do it with the proportioning valve attached to lessen the chance of air getting in while connecting the lines. Esp the bottom hole on the master.

The reason I bought all new (rebuilt) calipers was that I had similar results to what you're having.
The groove where the seal sits in the front calipers was rusted and I didn't believe any amount of sanding would fix it. Possibly if the groove is rusted on the inside (where they usually rust) it could seal under pressure and allow air in when fluid is being pulled back to the master?
In my rear calipers the rod for the e-bake was rusted right where the o-ring seal went. No sanding to fix that either.

Hope you get it figured out.