(STEERING) Steering issue: Not returning to center after turns.
06-15-09, 05:05 PM
#1
(STEERING) Steering issue: Not returning to center after turns.
As stated only those who are "Extremely" knowledgeable in this area are to offer suggestions please.
It's not very often that I am puzzled regarding any type of issue regarding our vehicles but I find my self in that position at the moment.
85 Gsl-Se with power steering-
On going issue with the steering when you make a left or right turn. If I make a right turn then proceed straight the car wants to pull right and also when making left turns it does the same wanting to pull left.
I have inspected the complete front end and here is what has been done so far.
I have replaced the lower ball joints (just worn out) and bushings. Replaced the struts with an upgrade to Illumina's. Inspected strut bearings and are in good shape.
Replaced Idler arm bushings as they were cracked.
No issues with inner or outer tie rods.
Front end has been aligned. No bent items.
Did it before the above and after the above.
Thought the P/S box was bad as it was the only thing left. Replaced that and it still does the same thing. Pittman arm also replaced.
While the steering column was detached from the gear box I checked it for binding and it is free. Also checked steering while up in the air and no binding or noises in the steering.
Have tested with P/S hooked up and removed and no difference.
Lets see some "Expert" diagnosis here guys.
It's not very often that I am puzzled regarding any type of issue regarding our vehicles but I find my self in that position at the moment.
85 Gsl-Se with power steering-
On going issue with the steering when you make a left or right turn. If I make a right turn then proceed straight the car wants to pull right and also when making left turns it does the same wanting to pull left.
I have inspected the complete front end and here is what has been done so far.
I have replaced the lower ball joints (just worn out) and bushings. Replaced the struts with an upgrade to Illumina's. Inspected strut bearings and are in good shape.
Replaced Idler arm bushings as they were cracked.
No issues with inner or outer tie rods.
Front end has been aligned. No bent items.
Did it before the above and after the above.
Thought the P/S box was bad as it was the only thing left. Replaced that and it still does the same thing. Pittman arm also replaced.
While the steering column was detached from the gear box I checked it for binding and it is free. Also checked steering while up in the air and no binding or noises in the steering.
Have tested with P/S hooked up and removed and no difference.
Lets see some "Expert" diagnosis here guys.
Last edited by Rx-7Doctor; 06-15-09 at 05:07 PM.
06-15-09, 11:29 PM
#6
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sounds like bad steering rack bushing, but since there isnt one, hmmm
how are the wheel bearings? tires? strut rod bushings?
its been a really long time, but how does the PS box and column attach? is that joint ok?
how are the wheel bearings? tires? strut rod bushings?
its been a really long time, but how does the PS box and column attach? is that joint ok?
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06-16-09, 12:50 AM
#9
Lives on the Forum
Well, a lack of caster would definitely cause this type of issue. However, I don't think you could dial out the caster far enough with the strut tops to induce this type of effect.
Bad bearings at the top of the strut? You say the alignement has been done, and the steering box has been replaced. I can't think of anything other than a bad alignement or two bad boxes. Good luck with this one Doc.
Bad bearings at the top of the strut? You say the alignement has been done, and the steering box has been replaced. I can't think of anything other than a bad alignement or two bad boxes. Good luck with this one Doc.
06-16-09, 01:35 AM
#10
Caster, wheel bearing not tight enough, or toe wear. As easy as it might be well worn or under inflated tires will do this too.
My best guess is that it isn't properly aligned. My fleet mechanic took one of our trucks to the dealer after we spent over $300 at our normal shop getting things aligned and they told us the rear hadn't even been touched, and the front was aligned horribly. They were taking our money and not doing ****...
My best guess is that it isn't properly aligned. My fleet mechanic took one of our trucks to the dealer after we spent over $300 at our normal shop getting things aligned and they told us the rear hadn't even been touched, and the front was aligned horribly. They were taking our money and not doing ****...
06-16-09, 05:48 AM
#11
Sounds like it might be toe'd out, assuming all the other steering components are OK (sounds like you've gone through the system pretty thoroughly so I'm guessing everything is fine there).
I wouldn't trust my alignment to an alignment shop, last time I did that they didn't get it right (it was pulling a bit to the right or left out on the highway, same before and after the "professional alignment". I discovered later it was toe'd out, see below. Somehow the alignment shop missed this).
Better to do it yourself with the string method, then you know exactly what you've got. At the very least you should check to be sure your front and rear wheels really are in alignment, it only takes a few minutes, a flat spot and a piece of string.
Here's a photo I took the last time I did an alignment, this one on my jeep
I don't think castor and camber are normally adjustable on an FB so unless it's been in an accident or seen some pretty serious repairs these should be OK.
I wouldn't trust my alignment to an alignment shop, last time I did that they didn't get it right (it was pulling a bit to the right or left out on the highway, same before and after the "professional alignment". I discovered later it was toe'd out, see below. Somehow the alignment shop missed this).
Better to do it yourself with the string method, then you know exactly what you've got. At the very least you should check to be sure your front and rear wheels really are in alignment, it only takes a few minutes, a flat spot and a piece of string.
Here's a photo I took the last time I did an alignment, this one on my jeep
I don't think castor and camber are normally adjustable on an FB so unless it's been in an accident or seen some pretty serious repairs these should be OK.
06-16-09, 07:27 AM
#12
Thanks to everyone that has posted.
The tires and rims are fine as it does it with both sets of my tires and wheels.
All components have been triple checked by me. The strut rod bushings were replaced before I had the alignment.
I have the alignment results somewhere and will post that up later today.
I'll have to put it up in the air and take some measurements and pictures for you guys to look at.
Again very much appreciated as I am at my wits end on this and I am no novice when it comes to these issues.
The tires and rims are fine as it does it with both sets of my tires and wheels.
All components have been triple checked by me. The strut rod bushings were replaced before I had the alignment.
I have the alignment results somewhere and will post that up later today.
I'll have to put it up in the air and take some measurements and pictures for you guys to look at.
Again very much appreciated as I am at my wits end on this and I am no novice when it comes to these issues.
06-16-09, 09:55 AM
#14
Doc,
I'm sure you have already checked, but how are the front wheel bearings? Any slop in the brake rotor/hub? How long has it been this way (if you know)? Might be worth pulling the front rotors and inspecting the spindle and bearing for unusual wear. Could be that the wheel bearings were not seated properly and the hub/wheels shift a bit in the turns..but perhaps you would have noticed any slop when checking the Idler arm and other steering parts.
I guess we will have to look at the alignment report and see if they checked/set toe, camber, caster, etc. and see what the values are compared to what they should be. Even if they took the time to set all of these, maybe their book or computer has the wrong data for the FB settings? This assumes that you had it alligned at the same place both times.
I'm sure you have already checked, but how are the front wheel bearings? Any slop in the brake rotor/hub? How long has it been this way (if you know)? Might be worth pulling the front rotors and inspecting the spindle and bearing for unusual wear. Could be that the wheel bearings were not seated properly and the hub/wheels shift a bit in the turns..but perhaps you would have noticed any slop when checking the Idler arm and other steering parts.
I guess we will have to look at the alignment report and see if they checked/set toe, camber, caster, etc. and see what the values are compared to what they should be. Even if they took the time to set all of these, maybe their book or computer has the wrong data for the FB settings? This assumes that you had it alligned at the same place both times.
06-16-09, 01:34 PM
#15
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
GSL-SE Addict may be on to something, as it's the only thing you didn't mention was either replaced or checked thoroughly.
Over the past year, I've rebuilt nearly every part of my SE steering, including rotors with new bearings, and there is an FSM section on making sure you have enough 'pre-load' on the wheel bearings to keep them aligned properly. What you describe with the car not 'centering' after a turn could be that the outside wheel bearing is allowing enough play to toe-out the steering during turns. In straight-line driving, the bearings may be aligned to center when sitting on an alignment rack, but as soon as you drive the car forward and drag is introduced pulling the tires back/outward, you get toe-out. This won't show on a static rack, but would be evident in the test drive.
The easy test for wheel bearing play is to block the rear tires, jack it, remove front wheels, and remove the brake pads. Spin the rotor. If the rotor spins freely (at ALL), you don't have enough pre-load snugged down. The FSM is a 5lb weight applied perpendicular to any stud before the rotor starts to turn - that may seem like a lot of force, but it's required to keep it all trued up under driving forces. Set pre-load by removing the dust cap at the center (flat blade screwdrivers work well for this), there's a huge-by-large Cotter pin stuck through a thin sheet metal castle retainer, and then the upright nut which holds it all together.
At this point, it might be worth your effort to install new bearings, but setting the pre-load correctly and then test driving would tell you a lot. Plus, bearing replacement is a PITA.
Anyway. You'll notice that the tension on the upright nut is what sets the bearings. You will find that tightening it down, and then spinning the rotor results in mixed settings. You'll actually need to go tighter than you'd think to spin it a few times and then check tension. Once tension is set, reassemble the castle retainer (tighten it more to align the Cotter pin, NOT less...), Cotter pin, and finally the dust cover.
You probably already know this, but for anyone else reading; USE NEW COTTER PINS - THIS IS CRITICAL. If you reuse an old pin and it shears, your front wheel is going to come off!
Once you get it all together recheck the pre-load tension. This might seem like a pain, but it's where the alignment has the greatest forces applied, and I'll bet you'll find one side looser than the other, resulting in your toe-out condition on cornering.
Also, you'd see this as tire wear on the insides of the tires moreso than the outsides.
Reply back with what you find, please.
Over the past year, I've rebuilt nearly every part of my SE steering, including rotors with new bearings, and there is an FSM section on making sure you have enough 'pre-load' on the wheel bearings to keep them aligned properly. What you describe with the car not 'centering' after a turn could be that the outside wheel bearing is allowing enough play to toe-out the steering during turns. In straight-line driving, the bearings may be aligned to center when sitting on an alignment rack, but as soon as you drive the car forward and drag is introduced pulling the tires back/outward, you get toe-out. This won't show on a static rack, but would be evident in the test drive.
The easy test for wheel bearing play is to block the rear tires, jack it, remove front wheels, and remove the brake pads. Spin the rotor. If the rotor spins freely (at ALL), you don't have enough pre-load snugged down. The FSM is a 5lb weight applied perpendicular to any stud before the rotor starts to turn - that may seem like a lot of force, but it's required to keep it all trued up under driving forces. Set pre-load by removing the dust cap at the center (flat blade screwdrivers work well for this), there's a huge-by-large Cotter pin stuck through a thin sheet metal castle retainer, and then the upright nut which holds it all together.
At this point, it might be worth your effort to install new bearings, but setting the pre-load correctly and then test driving would tell you a lot. Plus, bearing replacement is a PITA.
Anyway. You'll notice that the tension on the upright nut is what sets the bearings. You will find that tightening it down, and then spinning the rotor results in mixed settings. You'll actually need to go tighter than you'd think to spin it a few times and then check tension. Once tension is set, reassemble the castle retainer (tighten it more to align the Cotter pin, NOT less...), Cotter pin, and finally the dust cover.
You probably already know this, but for anyone else reading; USE NEW COTTER PINS - THIS IS CRITICAL. If you reuse an old pin and it shears, your front wheel is going to come off!
Once you get it all together recheck the pre-load tension. This might seem like a pain, but it's where the alignment has the greatest forces applied, and I'll bet you'll find one side looser than the other, resulting in your toe-out condition on cornering.
Also, you'd see this as tire wear on the insides of the tires moreso than the outsides.
Reply back with what you find, please.
Last edited by LongDuck; 06-16-09 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Safety issue around re-use of Cotter pins...
06-16-09, 02:45 PM
#17
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i like to grab the wheel and check for play, you can do it at the rotor too, it should have none. spec is 0.0 play, if you have new lower ball joints and strut top bearings, than really play would have to be wheel bearings.
have you ever tried to adjust the PS box?
have you ever tried to adjust the PS box?
06-16-09, 04:19 PM
#18
I'm gonna grant Doc that he's checked his wheel bearings and they are fine.
I think the cause of his problem is a faulty alignment caused by all those new fangled computer devices you need to pay those alignment guys to use on your car to figure out what can be done with a string. The difference is the string is more reliable (and free).
Which means that the print out is worthless. Garbage in, garbage out.
I think the cause of his problem is a faulty alignment caused by all those new fangled computer devices you need to pay those alignment guys to use on your car to figure out what can be done with a string. The difference is the string is more reliable (and free).
Which means that the print out is worthless. Garbage in, garbage out.
06-16-09, 08:47 PM
#19
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I'm gonna grant Doc that he's checked his wheel bearings and they are fine.
I think the cause of his problem is a faulty alignment caused by all those new fangled computer devices you need to pay those alignment guys to use on your car to figure out what can be done with a string. The difference is the string is more reliable (and free).
Which means that the print out is worthless. Garbage in, garbage out.
I think the cause of his problem is a faulty alignment caused by all those new fangled computer devices you need to pay those alignment guys to use on your car to figure out what can be done with a string. The difference is the string is more reliable (and free).
Which means that the print out is worthless. Garbage in, garbage out.
In any case, not all techs with their new Alignment Machines have issues. I personally can align a car nicely on one of those racks as well as can many of the guys at my dealership. The biggest thing I find is that if you move the car or knock a sensor, you're betting a big gamble that you just fucked up your precise measurements if you just relevel it and try and continue without re calibrating your measurements.
(Not really angry, just wanted to give credit to those who actually are good with the new fangled toys...)
06-17-09, 05:30 AM
#20
It's really much simpler than that, no need for psycho-analysis or apologies from the alignment sector (after all, 99% of the time they get it right). I'm just guessing Doc's SE is a little wall eyed, for whatever reason, and the alignment shop didn't catch it. After all, this is exactly what happened to me the last time I took my white 84 GSL in for the full treatment by an alignment shop, maybe 'cause it's a rotary?.
Toe in is a simple thing to independently check (and correct) with a piece of string, some flat level ground and a few minutes, so why not?
If I'm wrong, then you eliminate that possibility and move on to the steering box, wheel bearings and stuff, as the other posters have suggested. Or some of those new replacement parts in the steering. Mike, an FB friend in Atlanta, replaced his idler arm with a "peformance" unit and the steering was terribly stiff for awhile, no fun to drive, but after a few weeks it loosened up and was OK.
(I'm a little suspicious of those "upgrade" Illumina's, but then like Chris says I always wonder if the upgrades really are better than the Mazda engineers designed the FB in the first place).
Toe in is a simple thing to independently check (and correct) with a piece of string, some flat level ground and a few minutes, so why not?
If I'm wrong, then you eliminate that possibility and move on to the steering box, wheel bearings and stuff, as the other posters have suggested. Or some of those new replacement parts in the steering. Mike, an FB friend in Atlanta, replaced his idler arm with a "peformance" unit and the steering was terribly stiff for awhile, no fun to drive, but after a few weeks it loosened up and was OK.
(I'm a little suspicious of those "upgrade" Illumina's, but then like Chris says I always wonder if the upgrades really are better than the Mazda engineers designed the FB in the first place).
06-17-09, 09:08 AM
#21
Waffles - hmmm good
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I have my SA aligned with zero to a very small amount of toe out so it bites into the corners a bit easier. It does tend to be slow to center but I accept that for what it is. I vote for toe or caster issues, knowing Doc probably keeps up on his maintenance and its not worn parts causing it.
06-17-09, 02:32 PM
#22
Lives on the Forum
Doc
Is the rear of your car lowered? The last time I tried to have someone perform an alignment, they told me that they couldn't do it because the back of the car was lower than stock (he actually offered to "repair" it for me with new stock parts). Apparently (and I confirmed this with Billy), when you lower the rear of a 7, it moves the rear axle to one side ever so slightly. The tech said that they base their measurements on the rear of the car, so if that is off then they can't get an accurate alignment on the front.
After being told that, I looked at my car and I'll be damned if I can see any kind of offset. But I guess it must be a legitimate issue. I ended up doing it myself in my garage and it came out pretty good.
Anyway, just an idea... If the rear is offset, then they might have had the front measurements off as a result. Good luck...
Is the rear of your car lowered? The last time I tried to have someone perform an alignment, they told me that they couldn't do it because the back of the car was lower than stock (he actually offered to "repair" it for me with new stock parts). Apparently (and I confirmed this with Billy), when you lower the rear of a 7, it moves the rear axle to one side ever so slightly. The tech said that they base their measurements on the rear of the car, so if that is off then they can't get an accurate alignment on the front.
After being told that, I looked at my car and I'll be damned if I can see any kind of offset. But I guess it must be a legitimate issue. I ended up doing it myself in my garage and it came out pretty good.
Anyway, just an idea... If the rear is offset, then they might have had the front measurements off as a result. Good luck...
06-17-09, 03:07 PM
#24
1200 gone......but......
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Check caster numbers. My friend had his 7 aligned after replacing all the worn suspension parts/ bushings and had some similar issues so he brought it down to the shop I work at and when I did the alignment check;
the caster numbers were out of specs. The numbers were very close.
The factory caster specs are STAGGERED on the 7 so make sure they didn't try to make the numbers even when they aligned your car. Not sure why it was designed this way.
Got the 7 in specs and he said the 7 handled 10X's better. * He also needed tires.
I'm sure that was a factor as well. That was my experience. Good luck Doc.
the caster numbers were out of specs. The numbers were very close.
The factory caster specs are STAGGERED on the 7 so make sure they didn't try to make the numbers even when they aligned your car. Not sure why it was designed this way.
Got the 7 in specs and he said the 7 handled 10X's better. * He also needed tires.
I'm sure that was a factor as well. That was my experience. Good luck Doc.
06-17-09, 04:06 PM
#25
i'm a poser
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i'm going to check my caster on my car. i have the same symptoms, but when i did my alignment i ran out of time. now its summer and I have more time to do it. 
i'll let y'all know how it goes.
i'll let y'all know how it goes.