(IGNITION) DLIDFIS installed! Small write-up and some questions
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charliebars (01-15-24)
09-02-04, 02:26 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by r0taryr0ck3t
p.s. are the j109 ignitors just the stock ignitors or do you have to get them from a part store or a junk yard?
09-02-04, 02:30 PM
#28
The J-109 ignitors are stock on '81-'85 1st gens. You could get a couple from the junkyard if you want to. Or you could try your luck with GM HEI ignitors. Check out this thread that Tulsa made. He used the text from my article and made a new diagram (the ground schematics look funny, but at least he got the G=green and W=red pickup wire polarity correct). http://www.needfulthings.net/cgi-bin...ST;f=77;t=1511 LOL, LP1 instead of L1? Anyway, enjoy.
By the way at the bottom of the his thread, there are a couple pics of the rotary B2000 I upgraded last year with three HEI ignitors.
I'm going to start taking pictures now...
By the way at the bottom of the his thread, there are a couple pics of the rotary B2000 I upgraded last year with three HEI ignitors.
I'm going to start taking pictures now...
09-02-04, 02:41 PM
#29
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ok well i believe i have it all figured out now haha took me long enough but i do have it, i also have a question i have the stock ignition right now but it wont start.. i do have power to both the coils but my leading coil wont give a spark.. therefor i have no spark to my bottom two spark plugs, this would mean my leading ignitor is toast right? either that or my dizzy rotor is toast also....should i replace both?
09-02-04, 02:53 PM
#30
It sounds like you need to a do a little troubleshooting before taking on the direct fire mod.
Before you give up on the ignitor, there is a better way to test if it can still trigger your coil. Pull one of the spark plug wires off of the cap and hook it directly to the coil. Then plug the other end onto a spark plug and let it spark into the air (be sure the outer metal shell of the plug is grounded somehow). Then crank the engine and see if the plug has sparks (again, make sure it's grounded well).
If your ignitor truely is dead, you can pry the aluminum cover off the back, remove all the clear sealant stuff as well as any components on the aluminum cover that may contact the jumper wires, and solder the two jumper wires to the tabs.
Here is a dead one I gutted a couple days ago.
Before you give up on the ignitor, there is a better way to test if it can still trigger your coil. Pull one of the spark plug wires off of the cap and hook it directly to the coil. Then plug the other end onto a spark plug and let it spark into the air (be sure the outer metal shell of the plug is grounded somehow). Then crank the engine and see if the plug has sparks (again, make sure it's grounded well).
If your ignitor truely is dead, you can pry the aluminum cover off the back, remove all the clear sealant stuff as well as any components on the aluminum cover that may contact the jumper wires, and solder the two jumper wires to the tabs.
Here is a dead one I gutted a couple days ago.
09-02-04, 03:11 PM
#32
I almost gutted a good ignitor once. It was still sitting on a dizzy and had a tweaked connector on top. When I hooked up the B, C and ground wires and spun the dizzy shaft, nothing happened. I unscrewed it and set it next to a known dead ignitor. Right before I was about to pry the back off, something possesed me to retest the ignitor. Maybe it was from noticing that the screws were a little rusty around the washers where they contact the brass sleeves, or maybe it was the spirit of J-109 that spoke to me. LOL, whatever it was, I retested the ignitor, and sure enough, it wasn't dead. I straightened the connector and set it in my known good pile.
Man that would have sucked if I had gutted a good ignitor. Let this be a lesson to everyone. The ignitors ground through the brass sleeves in the screw holes. The ground travels from the circuit boards inside the ignitor to the aluminum backing plate. Since the outside of the plate is supposed to be covered with heat sink compound, its electrical transfer abilities are probably pretty low. Therefore, the brass sleeves transfer the ground up into the flat washers of the two screws which hold the ignitors to the dizzy housing, and then down the screws into the dizzy housing itself. Since mine had rusty flat washers, the ignitor's ground was lost. Perhaps this is why I got the dizzy for free? It only had one ignitor on it, but it was free, and the ignitor was not even dead!! Incidentally, the threaded section of both screws was still a normal cadmium color. Only the parts exposed to the elements were rusty.
Man that would have sucked if I had gutted a good ignitor. Let this be a lesson to everyone. The ignitors ground through the brass sleeves in the screw holes. The ground travels from the circuit boards inside the ignitor to the aluminum backing plate. Since the outside of the plate is supposed to be covered with heat sink compound, its electrical transfer abilities are probably pretty low. Therefore, the brass sleeves transfer the ground up into the flat washers of the two screws which hold the ignitors to the dizzy housing, and then down the screws into the dizzy housing itself. Since mine had rusty flat washers, the ignitor's ground was lost. Perhaps this is why I got the dizzy for free? It only had one ignitor on it, but it was free, and the ignitor was not even dead!! Incidentally, the threaded section of both screws was still a normal cadmium color. Only the parts exposed to the elements were rusty.
Last edited by Jeff20B; 09-02-04 at 03:22 PM.
09-02-04, 03:21 PM
#33
Originally Posted by r0taryr0ck3t
so there is nothing to go wrong with the ignitors other then one of the wires coming off?
As for the tops of the ignitors with their T shaped connectors, you can just use standard femal quick discconects in the popular uh medium size (sorry, I don't know what that size is called, but it;s the most commonly used size and can be found at any auto parts store/Radio Shack etc).
I'm going to try to get a picture of the tweeter connectors.
09-02-04, 04:40 PM
#34
Here are some pics.
1) Left, typical ignitor plate for DLIDFIS. On right, a single ignitor for a custom ignition system I'm working on.
2) The backside of the ignitor plates.
3) Closeup of DLIDFIS ignitor plate. This was once in my 13B powered GLC and fit in the stock external voltage regulator location. It worked great.
4) Closeup of the heat sink Compound from Radio Shack.
5) Tweeter connectors that have been opened slightly to better fit the pickup pins. I usually push them on as deep as in this picture. I've never had one fall off, yet they're still possible to remove with limited working space. It's good to find a balance of snugness.
More pics coming...
1) Left, typical ignitor plate for DLIDFIS. On right, a single ignitor for a custom ignition system I'm working on.
2) The backside of the ignitor plates.
3) Closeup of DLIDFIS ignitor plate. This was once in my 13B powered GLC and fit in the stock external voltage regulator location. It worked great.
4) Closeup of the heat sink Compound from Radio Shack.
5) Tweeter connectors that have been opened slightly to better fit the pickup pins. I usually push them on as deep as in this picture. I've never had one fall off, yet they're still possible to remove with limited working space. It's good to find a balance of snugness.
More pics coming...
09-02-04, 04:43 PM
#35
6) Bench testing some Mopar ignition modules. The MSD, Mazda ignitors and dizzy are only in this picture for the sake of human interest.
7) Vice Grips or other locking pliers are great to ground spark plugs. They only need to be tight enough to gently hold the spark plugs. Then use aligator clips or whatever to electrically ground it to your power source. I tested four sets of spark plugs in no time at all.
7) Vice Grips or other locking pliers are great to ground spark plugs. They only need to be tight enough to gently hold the spark plugs. Then use aligator clips or whatever to electrically ground it to your power source. I tested four sets of spark plugs in no time at all.
Last edited by Jeff20B; 09-02-04 at 04:45 PM.
09-02-04, 05:36 PM
#36
I took some more pics of the DLIDFIS installs in some of my rotary vehicles. Should I post them in this thread? Or start a new one? None are in any RX-7s so it's not exactly 1st gen stuff (even though the ignition parts are), and since this is the 1st gen section, I'm not sure what to do. Not many people look in the Other Rotaries subforum.
09-03-04, 02:00 AM
#38
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and for junkyard hunting where can i get the j-109 ignitors and a coil that will work, does it have to be off an rx7 or is there anyother vehicles that will have them?
09-03-04, 03:10 AM
#40
I'm not sure of any other vehicles that use J-109s, but there have got to be some. I think the early '80s 626 uses J-105. As for the coils, Hanshin is a typical one that you'll find here and there in non-RX-7 Mazdas that can be used with J-109 ignitors. My '78 GLC even had one and a huge electronic ignition module. The coil simply needs to say USE WITH TRANSISTOR IGNITION and not USE WITH BALLAST RESISTOR. The ballast resistor type are for points ignitions.
slashdawg, yes!
slashdawg, yes!
09-03-04, 09:56 AM
#41
This may help those who cant follow a diagram. THANKS TO JEFF and RHINOR61 for the ideas. I used colored wires to easily identify the positive and negative wires. There are 2 wires coming out from the dizzy to the igniters. RED = NEGATIVE & GREEN=POSITIVE (located in the last picture). I followed that color code across the board. Sorry about the quality of pix. This is a early morning rush job.
1. You will need to gut a NO-GOOD igniter and solder a 2 jumper wires as indicated in the picture. This will allow easy install. The wires coming out from the top connects directly to the igniters (picture #2).
2. Now, you will need a plate to mount the 2 igniters and wired just like this. Unless you have a better idea. The two sets of green/red wires goes to the 2 leading coils. Again, green is (+) and red is (-)
3. This is your new DLIDFIS
FYI: Be sure to solder every wires. its best to use T-Connectors, but for illustration purposes, I used female connectors.
1. You will need to gut a NO-GOOD igniter and solder a 2 jumper wires as indicated in the picture. This will allow easy install. The wires coming out from the top connects directly to the igniters (picture #2).
2. Now, you will need a plate to mount the 2 igniters and wired just like this. Unless you have a better idea. The two sets of green/red wires goes to the 2 leading coils. Again, green is (+) and red is (-)
3. This is your new DLIDFIS
FYI: Be sure to solder every wires. its best to use T-Connectors, but for illustration purposes, I used female connectors.
Last edited by Siraniko; 09-03-04 at 10:14 AM.
09-03-04, 10:59 AM
#42
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wackyracer, thanks for the pics and instructions. this is finally making sense to me. I did the 2nd gen coil leading mod. It was really easy to do, and getting the leading coil was as simple as a trip to the boneyard. I never find igniters in the 1st gens in the boneyard here. I think I now understand how to wire this up. Except I will probably do it with the HEI igniters unless I get lucky and stumble on some good (and one not-good) J-109s.
09-03-04, 01:25 PM
#44
Ack! On pic #3 you killed a pickup by removing its wire! I've never needed to cut any in all my ignition experiments.
I also noticed that your wires apear to switch positions. When looking at the back of an ignitor, the green wire is on the right. Then I see on the top of your ignitors, the green switches over to the left. I made sure to keep my wires in the same positions. All this requires is to have one jumper wire cross over the other wire inside the ignitor (which isn't a problem since they don't touch). Then at a later date, all I have to do is see how the colored wires enter the back of the ignitor and build a new harness according to the observed polarity. It's basically idiot-proof, which is good for me because I like to fit the aluminum backing plates back onto the ignitors and not have to remove them again or pull out the continuity tester etc.
Just some observations.
I also noticed that your wires apear to switch positions. When looking at the back of an ignitor, the green wire is on the right. Then I see on the top of your ignitors, the green switches over to the left. I made sure to keep my wires in the same positions. All this requires is to have one jumper wire cross over the other wire inside the ignitor (which isn't a problem since they don't touch). Then at a later date, all I have to do is see how the colored wires enter the back of the ignitor and build a new harness according to the observed polarity. It's basically idiot-proof, which is good for me because I like to fit the aluminum backing plates back onto the ignitors and not have to remove them again or pull out the continuity tester etc.
Just some observations.
09-03-04, 02:28 PM
#50
[QUOTE=Jeff20B]
1. On pic #3 you killed a pickup by removing its wire! I've never needed to cut any in all my ignition experiments.
-----
It came from a bad dizzy.
2. I also noticed that your wires apear to switch positions. When looking at the back of an ignitor, the green wire is on the right. Then I see on the top of your ignitors, the green switches over to the left.
-----
If you are to install a MSD 6A/6AL, the wires are connected to dizzy's as follows:
MSD violet (+) = dizzy green
MSD green (-) = dizzy red
Now, with the gutted t-stat. it doesnt really matter where it goes as long as you get the right connection. Trust me, the VOM beeps when you test for continuity between the two green OR two red wires. just noticed that conections between yours and John's (RHINO) gutted igniters are different too.
Wires between top of igniter to coil-
if you look at the stock connector, the one on the right (orig color is Yellow/blue or Yellow/green) connects to the coil's negative terminal.
***I used red wire to make it uniform with the dizzy's wiring.
Usually, I solder new wires from the dizzy to the DLDIFS package. But I have been busy lately, so here I go. I got 3 more cars to do tomorrow morning.
Sorry, this is a kinda last minute reply before I go to lunch. Im just going from my old memory.
1. On pic #3 you killed a pickup by removing its wire! I've never needed to cut any in all my ignition experiments.
-----
It came from a bad dizzy.
2. I also noticed that your wires apear to switch positions. When looking at the back of an ignitor, the green wire is on the right. Then I see on the top of your ignitors, the green switches over to the left.
-----
If you are to install a MSD 6A/6AL, the wires are connected to dizzy's as follows:
MSD violet (+) = dizzy green
MSD green (-) = dizzy red
Now, with the gutted t-stat. it doesnt really matter where it goes as long as you get the right connection. Trust me, the VOM beeps when you test for continuity between the two green OR two red wires. just noticed that conections between yours and John's (RHINO) gutted igniters are different too.
Wires between top of igniter to coil-
if you look at the stock connector, the one on the right (orig color is Yellow/blue or Yellow/green) connects to the coil's negative terminal.
***I used red wire to make it uniform with the dizzy's wiring.
Usually, I solder new wires from the dizzy to the DLDIFS package. But I have been busy lately, so here I go. I got 3 more cars to do tomorrow morning.
Sorry, this is a kinda last minute reply before I go to lunch. Im just going from my old memory.
Last edited by Siraniko; 09-03-04 at 02:33 PM.